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	<title>Comments on: They&#8217;re ba-ack!  Vouchers in South Carolina</title>
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	<link>http://shrimpandgrits.rickandpatty.com/2007/02/12/theyre-ba-ack-vouchers-in-south-carolina/</link>
	<description>Science, science education, and other things ... with a distinctly Southern drawl</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://shrimpandgrits.rickandpatty.com/2007/02/12/theyre-ba-ack-vouchers-in-south-carolina/#comment-11810</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;Not everyone that sends their kid(s) to a private school is rich. If you felt Cate could get a better education in a better environment by spending ~8K for a private school, wouldnâ€™t you sacrifice, save, get a second job, etc. in order to give that to her. I hope that you would.&lt;/i&gt;

Sure.  But that wouldn't relieve me of my obligations to contribute to public education.  An educated workforce benefits the state - it attracts decent jobs, culture, etc. 

&lt;i&gt;This is a complex issue, and will be for some time, as there is no easy solution.&lt;/i&gt;

You won't get any argument from me on that point.  it's a difficult problem.  it's just that I don't think vouchers are the silver bullet that will fix ... well, anything about the problem.

&lt;i&gt;The general idea is â€œwhy should my taxes pay for a public school that my child does not attend?â€ I see their point.  A retired/single/no kids family says â€œwhy should I pay taxes for a school system that I donâ€™t use?â€ I see their point.&lt;/i&gt;

This is the same argument as "I don't get to fly an Apache helicopter, so why should my taxes pay for the military?"  It ignores the benefits that simply &lt;b&gt;having an educated workforce&lt;/b&gt; brings to the state.  It's in everyone's interests to have a society that isn't filled with illiterates.  We all benefit, so we all pay.

&lt;i&gt;If public schools canâ€™t cut it, alternatives are needed. SC spends so much money on the school system, just to see it fail every student, every year.&lt;/i&gt;

Aren't we overdramatizing just a wee bit here?  Failing "every student", "every year"?  

The money issue is difficult.  Just looking at money spent, we're in the bottom third in terms of per-pupil spending.  So we spend money, but most states spend more than we do.  But we have a lower cost-of-living than some of those other states, which means we might not need to spend as much.  But we also have a lot of poor people, which means we might need to spend more. :)

&lt;i&gt;In public schools, there is little accountability.&lt;/i&gt;

What, did we suddenly stop testing public school students?

&lt;i&gt;In private schools, money talks (like every other business). If a teacher is underperforming, and the parents paying tuition are upset, guess what? Teacher gets replaced.&lt;/i&gt;

From my experience with private schools, I'd wager that this actually happens far less often that you're implying.  Part of the reason for this is that it's often difficult to evaluate how teachers are performing in the first place.  Now I *have* seen a teacher fired from a private school for flunking a board member's kid - but that's probably not what you meant. :)

&lt;i&gt;I would be interested to read your plan for fixing the school system and/or addressing the â€œvoucher systemâ€.&lt;/i&gt;

If I had a complete plan for improving the education system here, I'd probably be running for office right now.  But it seems that some things could be done.  I like the idea of getting more money into the classrooms by redoing the district system and getting rid of redundant administration.  I also like the idea of rethinking how we actually fund the schools.  There seems to be a lot of disparity here - we have some districts that sport brand spankin' new facilities, and then we have some others that look like not a coat of paint has been applied since 1967 - and poor facilities don't help students learn.  And, of course, there's the testing system - that's a royal pain in the butt for students and teachers.

Vouchers?  Hmm ... well, make sure that for any parent to get the credit or a voucher -the school's got to have a curriculum that meets or exceeds standards for public schools.  In other words, no garbage like this gets tax money:

http://www.abeka.com/Distinctives.html  (scroll down and look at science and English)

That doesn't address some other issues I have with vouchers, but ... it's time to get back to work. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Not everyone that sends their kid(s) to a private school is rich. If you felt Cate could get a better education in a better environment by spending ~8K for a private school, wouldnâ€™t you sacrifice, save, get a second job, etc. in order to give that to her. I hope that you would.</i></p>
<p>Sure.  But that wouldn&#8217;t relieve me of my obligations to contribute to public education.  An educated workforce benefits the state - it attracts decent jobs, culture, etc. </p>
<p><i>This is a complex issue, and will be for some time, as there is no easy solution.</i></p>
<p>You won&#8217;t get any argument from me on that point.  it&#8217;s a difficult problem.  it&#8217;s just that I don&#8217;t think vouchers are the silver bullet that will fix &#8230; well, anything about the problem.</p>
<p><i>The general idea is â€œwhy should my taxes pay for a public school that my child does not attend?â€ I see their point.  A retired/single/no kids family says â€œwhy should I pay taxes for a school system that I donâ€™t use?â€ I see their point.</i></p>
<p>This is the same argument as &#8220;I don&#8217;t get to fly an Apache helicopter, so why should my taxes pay for the military?&#8221;  It ignores the benefits that simply <b>having an educated workforce</b> brings to the state.  It&#8217;s in everyone&#8217;s interests to have a society that isn&#8217;t filled with illiterates.  We all benefit, so we all pay.</p>
<p><i>If public schools canâ€™t cut it, alternatives are needed. SC spends so much money on the school system, just to see it fail every student, every year.</i></p>
<p>Aren&#8217;t we overdramatizing just a wee bit here?  Failing &#8220;every student&#8221;, &#8220;every year&#8221;?  </p>
<p>The money issue is difficult.  Just looking at money spent, we&#8217;re in the bottom third in terms of per-pupil spending.  So we spend money, but most states spend more than we do.  But we have a lower cost-of-living than some of those other states, which means we might not need to spend as much.  But we also have a lot of poor people, which means we might need to spend more. <img src='http://shrimpandgrits.rickandpatty.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><i>In public schools, there is little accountability.</i></p>
<p>What, did we suddenly stop testing public school students?</p>
<p><i>In private schools, money talks (like every other business). If a teacher is underperforming, and the parents paying tuition are upset, guess what? Teacher gets replaced.</i></p>
<p>From my experience with private schools, I&#8217;d wager that this actually happens far less often that you&#8217;re implying.  Part of the reason for this is that it&#8217;s often difficult to evaluate how teachers are performing in the first place.  Now I *have* seen a teacher fired from a private school for flunking a board member&#8217;s kid - but that&#8217;s probably not what you meant. <img src='http://shrimpandgrits.rickandpatty.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><i>I would be interested to read your plan for fixing the school system and/or addressing the â€œvoucher systemâ€.</i></p>
<p>If I had a complete plan for improving the education system here, I&#8217;d probably be running for office right now.  But it seems that some things could be done.  I like the idea of getting more money into the classrooms by redoing the district system and getting rid of redundant administration.  I also like the idea of rethinking how we actually fund the schools.  There seems to be a lot of disparity here - we have some districts that sport brand spankin&#8217; new facilities, and then we have some others that look like not a coat of paint has been applied since 1967 - and poor facilities don&#8217;t help students learn.  And, of course, there&#8217;s the testing system - that&#8217;s a royal pain in the butt for students and teachers.</p>
<p>Vouchers?  Hmm &#8230; well, make sure that for any parent to get the credit or a voucher -the school&#8217;s got to have a curriculum that meets or exceeds standards for public schools.  In other words, no garbage like this gets tax money:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.abeka.com/Distinctives.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.abeka.com/Distinctives.html</a>  (scroll down and look at science and English)</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t address some other issues I have with vouchers, but &#8230; it&#8217;s time to get back to work. <img src='http://shrimpandgrits.rickandpatty.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://shrimpandgrits.rickandpatty.com/2007/02/12/theyre-ba-ack-vouchers-in-south-carolina/#comment-11805</link>
		<dc:creator>JB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I believe in Utah it has to be an accredited school.  How that is determined is anyones guess.  Also, in Utah, the plan is to give 3K to pay towards private school, EXCEPT those that are already in private school.  How is that fair?

"a $1000 tax credit for rich families who put their kids in exclusive private schools"

Not everyone that sends their kid(s) to a private school is rich.  If you felt Cate could get a better education in a better environment by spending ~8K for a private school, wouldn't you sacrifice, save, get a second job, etc. in order to give that to her.  I hope that you would.

Personally, I think families should be rewarded even more for their efforts in trying to achieve the very best for their children, and the future of SC.

This is a complex issue, and will be for some time, as there is no easy solution.

The general idea is "why should my taxes pay for a public school that my child does not attend?"  I see their point.

A retired/single/no kids family says "why should I pay taxes for a school system that I don't use?"  I see their point.

But to get back to good ol' South Carolina (a friend on the west coast called me, and asked me what time it was.  I said "1950"), doesn't something have to be done?  If public schools can't cut it, alternatives are needed.  SC spends so much money on the school system, just to see it fail every student, every year.  In public schools, there is little accountability.  In private schools, money talks (like every other business).  If a teacher is underperforming, and the parents paying tuition are upset, guess what?  Teacher gets replaced.  This doesn't happen (often) in public schools.

I would be interested to read your plan for fixing the school system and/or addressing the "voucher system".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe in Utah it has to be an accredited school.  How that is determined is anyones guess.  Also, in Utah, the plan is to give 3K to pay towards private school, EXCEPT those that are already in private school.  How is that fair?</p>
<p>&#8220;a $1000 tax credit for rich families who put their kids in exclusive private schools&#8221;</p>
<p>Not everyone that sends their kid(s) to a private school is rich.  If you felt Cate could get a better education in a better environment by spending ~8K for a private school, wouldn&#8217;t you sacrifice, save, get a second job, etc. in order to give that to her.  I hope that you would.</p>
<p>Personally, I think families should be rewarded even more for their efforts in trying to achieve the very best for their children, and the future of SC.</p>
<p>This is a complex issue, and will be for some time, as there is no easy solution.</p>
<p>The general idea is &#8220;why should my taxes pay for a public school that my child does not attend?&#8221;  I see their point.</p>
<p>A retired/single/no kids family says &#8220;why should I pay taxes for a school system that I don&#8217;t use?&#8221;  I see their point.</p>
<p>But to get back to good ol&#8217; South Carolina (a friend on the west coast called me, and asked me what time it was.  I said &#8220;1950&#8243;), doesn&#8217;t something have to be done?  If public schools can&#8217;t cut it, alternatives are needed.  SC spends so much money on the school system, just to see it fail every student, every year.  In public schools, there is little accountability.  In private schools, money talks (like every other business).  If a teacher is underperforming, and the parents paying tuition are upset, guess what?  Teacher gets replaced.  This doesn&#8217;t happen (often) in public schools.</p>
<p>I would be interested to read your plan for fixing the school system and/or addressing the &#8220;voucher system&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: eric</title>
		<link>http://shrimpandgrits.rickandpatty.com/2007/02/12/theyre-ba-ack-vouchers-in-south-carolina/#comment-11752</link>
		<dc:creator>eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>your point is very well articulated and succinct.

the bright spot is now we can look to utah to see just how this type of thing will work out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>your point is very well articulated and succinct.</p>
<p>the bright spot is now we can look to utah to see just how this type of thing will work out.</p>
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